What Is Sig Smoking?
Sig Sauer has long been known for making some of the highest quality weapons in the world.
Perhaps I should say "was known."
For a number of years, declining Sig handgun quality has been fairly evident; beyond that, when the Sig 556 came out several years ago, many Sig fans were disappointed. Rather than simply bring a US made 55X to market, they changed the weapon significantly, and not for the better.
But I'm not going to talk about the 556 very much. No, tonight's topic is the Sig 516, their AR-platform weapon.
Naturally, it's a short-stroke gas piston design. If you're concerned that it's not been fully developed and is just a hastily converted AR, have no fear - they copied LWRC's bolt carrier design, and a bunch of other features from other manufacturers. In theory, this conglomeration of other companies' designs should add up to a functional weapon.
This isn't really "new news" - this was evident at SHOT 2010 - but the production versions are shipping with what is essentially a copy of the LWRC bolt carrier. It's most likely legal, but doesn't inspire me to purchase their weapon - both from a moral and a design standpoint. Perhaps the LWRC bolt carrier is the ultimate evolution of the piston AR bolt carrier; if so, giving credit where credit is due is in order for Sig, but according to LWRC, the design has not been licensed.
Beyond the piston system, what Sig is apparently most proud of is that the lower receiver has raised magazine catch fences, as if this was a pressing issue that desperately needed attention, and the addition of a spring-loaded plunger underneath the rear takedown pin, which serves to reduce "play" between upper and lower receivers. Again, this is another issue that kept AR-15 owners up at night.
It does have an ambidextrous magazine release, but such items can be retrofitted to any AR, courtesy of companies such as Norgon and Knight's Armament. An ambidextrous safety is claimed, but I have yet to see a single video or photograph of a SIG516 with such a feature, to include photos/videos of production models for sale. This is not exactly groundbreaking, either, and is also widely available.
From a technical standpoint, the gas system is standard carbine length; puzzling, when one considers that Sig could have manufactured the weapon with any length gas system, and were not limited to previous AR gas system standards. It's especially puzzling when one considers that not only do the 10" and 16" barrels have the carbine gas system, but also the 18" "Precision Marksman". If the AR-15 market has been crying out for a carbine gas 18" barreled piston/op-rod DMR, I haven't been paying much attention.
All barrels are 1/7 twist, chrome lined and nitrided - I would assume that the nitriding is only on the exterior, but my assumptions are not always correct - and the ubiquitous M203 cutout is present on the 16" barrel. It's possible that the bottom rail could be removed, but still, is making the weapon compatible with the "old version" of the M203 that critical to potential end users?
Initial photographs show rails that look quite like Troy models, though production versions appear to have a new design that I don't believe represents Troy manufacturing features. All are, of course, carbine length, and due to the design of the picatinny gas block (which is not, by the way, the same height as the upper receiver rail), compatibility with any other rail system is highly questionable.
The silver lining for some folks is that the weapon will most likely retail somewhere in the neighborhood of $1200; if unsold and "un-bidded-upon" $1500 examples on Gunbroker are any indication. They're apparently shipping with Sig's mini red dot, which is a semi-decent Aimpoint Micro clone made in China that Sig sells separately for almost $200. If you like the concept, buy the Primary Arms version for about $80. For a company like Sig to include it - and no iron sights - is an embarrassing joke. If these weapons are truly the "ultimate refinement" of the AR, the "most advanced AR available," they need to ship with real iron sights and not an overpriced Chinese red dot.
The weapon does have QD sling swivel sockets attached to the receiver extension tube, but the placement may not be ideal for easy use of some controls. This is not a novel concept, either - many companies offer similar components..
So, to recap, the SIG516 has:
A one-piece, anti-tilt bolt carrier (from LWRC)
A three or four position gas regulator easily adjusted with a 5.56 case (from Ruger and others)
A tension device underneath the rear takedown pin (from Sun Devil)
Redesigned magazine release fences (also from Sun Devil)
QD sockets on the receiver extension tube (from a number of companies)
A short-stroke gas piston system (from someone to be determined).
So what, exactly, makes this the most refined AR platform weapon in existence, as Sig claims? I have no idea. If you have $1200 to spend, there are far better weapons to spend your money on.
One photograph on the SIG516 website really speaks volumes to me. It shows an unidentified male pulling back the charging handle with the index and middle fingers of his firing hand. This is a vastly outdated method of retracting the charging handle, and it tells me how out of touch Sig is with the carbine market, as if the rest of the product wasn't evidence enough.
Do you want this rifle? I sure don't, and I can't fathom why anyone would.
Sig continues on a downward spiral. I wonder what the men who designed and built the P210 would think.
August 6th, 2010 - 22:53
I saw this rifle at the NRA show in NC. I was actually kinda interested when under the rail system I saw what looked like the HK416′s heat sink. I asked the salesmen and he said that “the weapon was designed by the same person that build the 416.” I then asked as nicely as I could,”so why are you using a Troy rail?” He kinda looked at me for a minute and said “price.”
I think I might consider their Sig556 ‘Classic’, looks similar to the 550…
August 7th, 2010 - 14:31
There’s no shortage of individuals who believe that gas-pistoning the AR perfects the platform (lol). Combine those people with brand name loyalty, in this case Sig, and you’ve got yourself a cash cow.
Regardless, Sig needs to work on the charging handle not locking properly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBx1HQTAyxM&feature=player_embedded#!
August 7th, 2010 - 18:02
$1200 for a gas-piston AR with 1/7 hammer forged barrel and gas adjustment? With a rail and SOPMOD stock, too? That seems pretty compelling. An LWRC A3 upper (also gas adjustable) alone is close to 2 grand, right?
What am I missing? How did it compare to the Ruger SR556?
August 7th, 2010 - 18:30
Production models ship with an MOE stock.
Remember, it has no sights. Complete LWRCs (with $200 sights and $120 stock) can be found for $1899.
August 8th, 2010 - 22:29
Sig really does seem to be losing it. Their accessories (made by some company called iTac) suck and are overpriced.
Am I the only one tired of hearing about piston ARs? They’re almost completely pointless for the civilian market. If anything, more dissipator setups would make more sense.
I guess it’s because that’s what all the go-fast guys (who are shooting very high volumes, full-auto, short barrels and suppressors – you know, the only REAL reasons to run a piston) are using.
I’ve come to the conclusion that the gas piston AR is the mark of a wanna-be.
March 9th, 2011 - 11:40
So, what you’re trying to say is this weapon is not for you? Also, when Sig released this weapon they stood strong to their commitment that they have taken the best of the AR and have fixed the area that needed to be addressed. You basically laid on the line nothing different then what Sig as announced it had intended. You just put the labels of the companies that have done well with their design. It’s a great price tag for a weapon that is certain other companies had labeled their own, would be much more expensive. Changing the 1,299.99 into a 2,299.99 tag. It is one of the first AR platforms that have and will strive on the piston operation. It was designed well and I will be happy to lay down the doe. Makes me rethink my arsenal of AK weapons…Almost. 20k rounds without needing cleaning is highly impressive. One of the HK-416 designers defected and came over to Sig to help with this and the 716 series rifles. There is a lot of engineering that has been looked at and re looked at and I think it will prove to be a well rounded AR. Take all the best (unlicensed) ideas that has been integrated into the AR platform and fix the broken ones. This is the only rifle and company that’s standing by their word. Also, side note. Ruger has done equallywell and have been hitting the drawing board just as hard and put out a great AR system. I’ve seen the Rugers 200 and sometimes 300 dollars more than the Sig. I’m not a betting man, but when it comes to mine and my families lives. I’ll bet that the Sig is built slightly better standards.
March 11th, 2011 - 15:13
Nick, I handled US and German versions of the Sig 516 today. Development is far from finished. There are glaring issues that need to be fixed, both from design and assembly standpoints. If a cobbled together rifle with poorly thought out features at a high price point is your dream gun, by all means, plunk down the cash. Or, if you really want a piston/op-rod AR, you could get an LWRC, which has over half a decade of development behind it.
April 7th, 2011 - 15:25
Nick: You pretty much summed up my thoughts well. I’m new here, and was researching the 516 at length before “pulling the trigger” so to speak. To date, the only negatives I’ve heard consistently are from purists who seem to somehow have been insulted by the fact that Sig is even in the AR market. All of the griping appears to be about the fact that they’ve leveraged other popular components to build what they thought was a superior rifle. Somehow I missed the boat on how this is a negative? If it is, then I’m assuming you also have absolutely no respect for virtually 100% of our fighter jets in the air today, as all were essentially based on stolen technology from defecting German scientists 60 years ago. Ever compare a stealth fighter or bomber to a German Gotha built in the 40′s?
Ad nauseum I hear the comparisons to LWRC, but only in as far as LWRC was first with the design and they should be given “credit”. Fine… congratulations LWRC. Now beyond that… you still have an AR that brings together design innovations from multiple sources and puts it all together under a label with a strong reputation for quality. So other than getting our undies in a twist about who gets credit for what feature, is there something substantive about the design that makes it a flawed rifle and no worth the price? If so, I can’t see it. The only place I’ll agree with the criticism is on the lack of iron sights. With that said, given the selection of sights on the market and the varying preferences from one shooter to the next, I can understand the decision to allow the customer to make that decision after-market.
April 7th, 2011 - 16:20
If the fact that one of the world’s foremost firearms manufacturers has apparently ceased innovating and is now just amalgamating others’ designs into one rifle doesn’t bother you, then I don’t know what to say. This is the company that brought us the P210…now they’re copying the designs of (relative to Sig) upstart manufacturers?
It is clear that the only people who make these sorts of comments really don’t know much about ARs. I’ll forgive you because of that.
April 23rd, 2011 - 20:45
A Sig 516 has gone through 30,000 rounds without a single malfunction while being submerged in water, mud, and sand. LWRC has yet to be brave enough to try and publicize anything similar to that. I don’t remember did LWRC invent the gun? How about the Rifle? How about the Semi-Auto Rifle? How about the AR-15? How about the piston system? Does it bother you that LWRC is amalgamating others’ designs into one rifle? Sig and LWRC both have put others’ designs into their own rifles. I probably don’t know much about ARs, please forgive me, but I can see that relatively no one invents the first of something which no one else improves. For about seven hudred dollars less you get the Sig 516. Pay $400 for a stock and sights and you still save $300 and have the option of getting the sights and stock that you want. Sig 516 may not be the best, but it is better than a gun that no one can fathom why anyone would buy it.
April 23rd, 2011 - 20:47
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
July 22nd, 2011 - 08:29
well, i can personally attest to the 516 being a great piston operated ar platform. i picked mine up for 1,240.00 shipped and havent had a problem with it other than underpowered .223 tula which wouldnt cycle everytime. im attesting that to the H buffer but will let you know how it turns out once i try a lighter one. i stay away from steel cased ammo and tula or wolf in particular but just had some laying around. i guess that could be a problem if thats all i had when the shtf but i have plenty of good 5.56 on hand. havent had any other problems besides the crap .223 ammo. i thought the red dot was cool for my g22 but not sufficiant for the sig. i just threw an eotech and some magpul buis up there and she was good to go. definetly wouldnt mind having more di ar’s though, cant wait to get my ddm4 v1.
April 24th, 2011 - 19:48
I’ve only had it had a short time, but so far the 516 is a nice piece of work. I own 2 other Sig’s a 228 which is now 20 years old, and all original equipment right down to the springs, and a Sig522 which is a little over a year old. The 522 already has over 20,000 rounds through it, and it works flawless. The 516 is smooth and accurate, and like my other Sigs, everyone seems jealous of the standard Sig trigger pull. So far I haven’t found anything to dislike. The mini red dot works quite well, and I haven’t had to re-sight it in yet. I would have preferred it shipped with no sight. I think sights are really a personal preference, but I may switch the mini red dot, with my current 522 sight. All in all, I love the rifle.
May 10th, 2011 - 12:17
I just picked one up last weekend. The main reason I chose it was for the same reasons you seem to deride it. SIG took a lot of what I think to be some of the best features available and consolidated them into one gun. The fact that they brought this gun to market for less than an LWRC upper goes for is just frosting on the cake.
The other main reason I chose it was the SIG Sauer on the side of it. I will admit that I am a big fan of SIG Sauer firearms and I now own 15 of them with this latest purchase. I have owned 3 other AR15s in the past and spent over 7 years in the Army as an Infantryman so I think I know the AR platform pretty well. Many of my shooting buddies think I am a bit of a gun snob because I like good quality gear even if they think the price is way too high. I don’t buy junk and I have too many good guns to shoot to waste my time on junk guns. I had given up on AR15s after getting my first and second SIG 556 rifles. My last AR was just getting left behind in the safe while I shot the 556 rifles more and more. Then I even got a 556 pistol that has since been registered and converted into an SBR. I just got tired of all the time spent cleaning all the carbon out of my AR’s action. My 556 rifles barely needed more than a wipe down and lube.
Does the DI AR work? Sure, but it’s a very dirty system. I think the piston AR is an improvement over DI and since I plan to suppress this one I especially like the adjustable gas block that has a setting specifically for suppressed fire that allows enough gas to cycle the action but eliminates the excessive gas blow back so common on DI ARs.
The last thing that pushed me over the edge in purchasing this 516 was that the trigger pull was one of the best factory triggers I have felt on an AR in a long time. I have always been big on match triggers in my ARs, but I plan to leave this one stock. In fact I don’t have to do hardly anything to this AR.
My last AR was a custom build by me (or cobbled together to use your term). I did this for the same reason I build my own computers. I want the best features in one package that no single manufacturer offers without heavy customization after market and spending more money to be left with a bunch of unused parts. SIG has put together some of the best features out there in a stock rifle and did it at a very good price considering what you get for the money. All I have had to add is a VFG and rail covers so far. The supplied red dot works fine for now, but my 516′s accuracy has been so good that I think a more precision magnified optic may just help this rifle realize its full potential. I also added a set of MBUS sights as I think every combat type firearm should have back-up sights.
By the way, the sight rail on the gas block on mine is on the same plane as the receiver and free float handguard rails.
You wrote the original article in August of last year, but later commented that you first handled it in March this year. So all the points in the original article were based on what? Pictures on the internet? Then in the reply you talked of glaring issues that needed to be addressed but didn’t give any specifics as to what they were. Yes, I would have preferred they left out the M4 profile barrel, but that’s far from a deal breaker. If it is part of what helped keep the price down then I understand the decision. Whatever the deficiencies you found were they must have addressed them, because I found no one problem with my 516.
Feel free to dismiss me as a SIG “fan boy” if you wish. I am proud to admit it, and damn proud of all my SIGs from my P210-6 to my Blaser Tactical 2. None of them have given me a single problem and all have displayed excellent performance for me.
Has SIG had a few problems with some of their guns, yes. Has current management made some poor decisions? Yes they have. Was the SIG 516 one of them. Not at all. I was very excited about the P250, but offering it only in DAO and final production version being bigger than the original design killed it for me. The original 556 rifle was an abomination, and it wasn’t until the Classic line did I even consider buying one. I went into it knowing I would replace the cheap stock and sights with a Swiss 550 stock and Aurora’s Swiss styled diopter sights. I have had several opportunities to shoot the 550 in Switzerland and Germany while stationed there, and I even approached Eric VonBosse from SIGARMS at the 2003 IWA show in Germany to tell him of my idea for a US made version of the 550 that would take AR mags. If they had done just that, then it would have been a much bigger hit. The choice to use cheap accessories and furniture was bad, but they are listening to the market and making improvements. The 556 Classic was a big step in the right direction. I didn’t use any of these past failures to prejudge the 516 though.
It would have been great if SIG could have gotten a good market share of the police carbine market with the 556, but agencies have pretty much standardized on the AR platform, so an AR is what SIG made them. I think the 516 has more features to offer than any other AR out there right now. I still love my 556 rifles, but the 516 will make a good companion to them.
P.S. your “whatever helps you sleep at night” comment just comes across as childish.
May 10th, 2011 - 12:57
cswimm, I do not have the time to explain myself over and over to everyone who has bought into every bit of marketing hype put out by company X or company Y. Beyond that, if someone is willing to make exceptional leaps or bends in logic to justify their purchase, nothing some random guy on the internet (me) says is going to make a difference to them. They’re looking for an argument, and I have better things to do. Hence, the “whatever helps you sleep at night” comment.
Sig’s current corporate stance towards reliability can be summed up with their own words (paraphrased by GAO, that is): “Sig Sauer also contends that ATF placed too great an emphasis upon reliability in determining which offers should continue to phase III.” In other words, their product was very unreliable compared to the others in the competition, but that just isn’t any more important than, say, being able to swap out the frame for a smaller version. What a joke.
I have owned nearly 10 Sig handguns at this point, and only one – my West German P228 – never malfunctioned. I have a low opinion of the Sig 556 – all versions – for various reasons, and my initial impression of the 516 has not been positive. You can see a video of me discussing the 516 at IWA 2011. It’s on The Firearm Blog.
July 9th, 2011 - 00:19
Why keep buying Sig if only one out of 10 worked well? Were you waitting for that special one?
July 9th, 2011 - 07:36
Because initially, they worked well, and when they didn’t, I made excuses for them.
My comment was directed at one person who insisted that he had a bunch of Sigs that never failed. That only means that he hasn’t shot them enough. Even if a pistol is perfect and never needs any part or spring replaced (which is, of course, false), ammunition and magazines will cause problems eventually.
July 9th, 2011 - 09:29
I totally agree. I love Glock and, I own Glock and I own SIG, my partners own Glock and SIG, but Glock gave me more problems than SIG. Every gun will fail some day, so it does not matter what you like and what you have, all you have to do is to take care of your firearm and stop relying on commercial tricks.
I personally like Sig 516, but only for practicing, it is easy and accurate for targeting even my wife enjoys it (she hate guns) and it is light enough for few hours of tactical training. However, Sig just started and did not gain trust in this portion of weapons, especially with technology of STG 44/AK-47 on AR15 platform rifle. But $1300 for “piston-cleaner” rifle and the company with the heritage since 1853 … hm, why not?!
July 9th, 2011 - 14:46
Sig’s history goes back farther than 1853, if you count Sauer…1751.
For people who buy guns “just because/why not,” there is absolutely no harm in buying one, I suppose.
I really want my dollars/euros/renminbi to go as far as they can, so I pass a lot of stuff by.
June 11th, 2011 - 02:43
So Sig took features that worked from several manufacturers and put them into one AFFORDABLE package. The cheapest LWRC is $1600 (unless you can tell me where else to look). I have seen the Sig 516 going for $1300. Oh and the cheapest LWRC doesn’t even have quad rail handguards, and it has the less than ideal A2 sights. The Ruger SR556 has both troy iron sights and a quad rail and it can be found for $200 cheaper than the LWRC. The Sig 516 is a good deal and way better than buying a two or three thousand dollar AR from LWRC. All I have to say that I don’t see LWRC rifles significantly outperforming ANY other well-made ARs AND they are ridiculously more expensive. Unless you can point out a good reason to spend three, four, or a thousand more dollars on an LWRC I think you should give Sig credite where credit is due. In other words Sig isn’t ripping off people like LWRC.
June 11th, 2011 - 12:56
Lauren, if you are correct, then LWRC will have to lower their prices because of increased competition in the market.
Frankly, the Ruger SR556 has been out for quite a while and I do not believe that it has had a major impact on buyers who would otherwise select LWRC rifles.
As I have said before in this comment “tree,” to someone new to ARs, they all look the same, just as good, and “oh why is that one more expensive, they must be ripping people off?”
This is not always the case.
It is my opinion that IF you are going to buy a piston/op-rod AR to depend on, you should buy one that has a lot of development behind it, as well as having been on the market for years – the lower quality ones will go by the wayside after a while.
If you are simply looking to buy a “piston AR-15,” then buy whatever you wish, and justify your purchase however you like.
July 3rd, 2011 - 11:40
I have a Sig 516 patrol & a Sig 522 swat. I haven’t have any issues at all with any of them. Just yesterday i shot 200rds through the 516 with out any problems and shot over 300rds with the 522.
From my experience:
Sig 522:
Shot over 2000rds and had only about 5 misfires 3 of them due to bulk ammo. cleaning is done in 10 mins. It has a Tasco red dot with a angled Magpul foregrip. Its my practice plinker =). plus it is great on the pocket 500rds for $20 you cant beat that. All in all its a great gun don’t have any issues.
Sig 516:
Shot only 500rds. still breaking it in but its been a beast. i put the Bushnell trophy 1x32mm red/green dot in support to the “IRON SIGHTS” that came with the gun. I guess Sig got everyone’s feedback about there red dot and fixed that issue. Kudos to Sig’s PR. i was about to get Troy’s front/rear flip up sights anyways if it did come with the red dot. Over all very impressed.
FYI… if i didn’t get the 516 i was going to get the DDm4 V5. either way i chose would think i would of been happy either way i went. They both great “USER” reviews many months of research.
July 3rd, 2011 - 11:56
i let the gun speak for it’s self
July 9th, 2011 - 00:05
Please show me AR15/M4 for $1,200.00 better than SIG R51616BP (PATROL W/RAIL)
July 9th, 2011 - 07:34
Colt 6920. BCM MID-16. Spike’s M4LE. And on and on.
July 9th, 2011 - 09:00
all of them in a range of $1350-1700 and most no piston
any web-links so, I could see?!
July 9th, 2011 - 14:38
All of the rifles I mentioned are at or under $1150 and do not have gas piston/op-rod systems.
July 9th, 2011 - 14:50
Sig has a piston system and the cheapest I found $1300 and rifles that you did mentioned are not better in anything than Sig
You can by CMMG for $600 no piston and it’s not worst than the rifles you mentioned
Pointless review and comments
July 9th, 2011 - 15:00
Haha. Okay. Continuing the string of people who think things like “CMMG = Colt” and that the simple addition of a piston gives a rifle magical properties.
It’s quite funny that everyone who posts in defense of the 516 is absolutely clueless when it comes to ARs.
July 9th, 2011 - 18:22
Colt is great!
Noveske is great!
Sig is great!
CMMG is great!
AR 15 no piston is out of question now!!!
I was asking about the price you did not answer, because you have nothing to show.
I am not advertising Sig or others, but I can back every word when I say about prices.
I DID NOT FIND A PISTON SYSTEM AR15 PLATFORM RIFLE BETTER THAN SIG 516 FOR $1200 AND SO DID NOT YOU!
Finally, after decades AR is getting piston system on, should done it long time ago.
And don’t give me crap about tubes, buffers and tilts, like no piston will run forever. You will clean AR with no piston forever, keep cleaning it soldier.
July 9th, 2011 - 19:49
Go be retarded somewhere else.
July 9th, 2011 - 09:00
all of them in a range of $1350-1700 and most no piston
any web-links so, I could see?!
July 9th, 2011 - 09:07
Let me rephrase: Please show me AR15/M4 with -PIN ON PISTON GAS BLOCK SYSTEM- for $1,200.00 better than SIG R51616BP (PATROL W/RAIL)
July 9th, 2011 - 14:43
I do not make large purchases by first determining that I need one feature at the exclusion of all others, then deciding to purchase the cheapest example with that feature that I find.
In fact, I am innately distrustful of the cheapest of anything. I am also distrustful of brand new AR makers. When someone comes along with what is supposed to be not only the cheapest, but also the best, right out of the gate, I remain unimpressed.
July 9th, 2011 - 14:46
You just cannot show me what I’ve ask you, simple is that.
I personally like Sig 516, but only for practicing, it is easy and accurate for targeting even my wife enjoys it (she hate guns) and it is light enough for few hours of tactical training. However, Sig just started and did not gain trust in this portion of weapons, especially with technology of STG 44/AK-47 on AR15 platform rifle. But $1300 for “piston-cleaner” rifle and the company with the heritage since 1853 … hm, why not?!
September 5th, 2011 - 21:46
I think a DI gun works ok for the guy that goes to the range for some fun and for the one who loves to spend all day scrubing the inside of a rifle. When I went shopping for a new AR I knew that I wanted a quality rifle that was pison driven. I was an Airborne Infantry solider and have alot of experience with the AR platform. The DI system was not only a long process for me to clean so it would pass the “white glove inspection,” it made me wonder if I was dropped into combat, if it would function in harsh conditions. We trained for airborne ops into foreign countries with whatever we could carry on our backs and we were never guaranteed when we would get re-supplied, so that also meant gun cleaning supplies. So I always wondered why our rifles didn’t function like the AKs that our enemy carries that can run forever between cleanings.
I am not in the Army anymore and I dont need a piston rifle that runs clean but, I do like to prepare for the worst. Plus the DI system isn’t fun to clean. I dont understand your strong dislike for the SIG 516. I have owned a 6920 and was issued m4′s in the Army and think that Sig makes a good AR thats runs good and I can clean it quickly. When I read these silly debates I wonder how many of the guys making coments are actual soliders commenting on which tools of the trade work best,or someone that owns alot of safe queens…Piston vs DI debates always end up sounding like a debate on which auto company makes the better pick up truck….There are alot of good DI guns but I would rather take a piston rifle to war,especially if I was going to shoot suppressed.
October 1st, 2011 - 18:49
Im a subscriber to the writer of this article youtubes page and I have to say he really knows what he is talking about when it comes to AR’s
I have no clue on the 516, Ive never held it or took it apart, I will say this though. If anyone is going to get a gas piston system just get the PWS and forget the rest. They have an even better system than the LWRC in my opinion. Its real close to an AK and we all know how reliable an AK is
October 4th, 2011 - 06:15
I have compared, analyzed, shot, re-assessed and re-analyzed/disassembled-re-assembled, etc, etc, etc BOTH the LWRC and Sig 516 rifles along with my local gun shop store owner. We both unknowingly came to the SAME conclusion. The Sig 516 is very arguably the BEST value for a gas piston AR15/M416 type rifle out there! It seemed to fit tighter and had as good or better fit/finish/ out of the box as the LWRC. Not to knock on the LWRC, it is a great weapon, but as mentioned above, Sig took all the best technologies from the best AR examples then had the same engineer who build HK’s 416 put it all together. I got my Sig 516 Patrol for $1,249+ tax and I couldn’t be happier! Compared to the LWRC – I got easily as good if not better rifle and took the $600+ savings and bought a shitload of ammo and accessories for it. There is just no reason to pay over $1,300 dollars for a AR/M4 Gas Piston type rifle that has “Mission Capable” reliability/functionality/accuracy – or as Sig likes to say “To HELL and Back Reliability”… I could probably say the same about Sig’s 1911′s but that’s another argument…
October 4th, 2011 - 09:50
Conclusions about the comparative quality of AR-15s which are based entirely on fit and finish are fallacious.
October 16th, 2011 - 15:14
I personnally don’t want to get in the middle of your seemingly arguement with….hmm, everyone..lol. I do not own an AR at all at the moment, but have been researching piston driven ARs for about 2 months, have spent nights and weekends watching youtube vids, and reading reviews on S&W, Ruger, SIG, LWRC, and many others. I have alot of experience with AKs, but not ARs. I want an AR that I can trust like I do my AKs, and DI ARs just won’t cut it. I also want the best bang for my buck, and so far, after all my research, providing SIG has rectified the “cheap red dot” issue, which I plan to make a couple of phone calls to find out about. The Sig 516 has come out on top, and this string has helped me alot to decide that. I will tell Sig to send you a thank you note.
October 16th, 2011 - 16:30
Hey dude, whatever works for you.
October 16th, 2011 - 16:49
First let me say, I generally like the vuurwapenblog as it usually gives good insight to a weapon and I appreciate somebody with actual knowledge sharing that knowledge with me. Also, being a retired Marine I appreciate the fact that the author used to be a Corpman. A calling for which I have the utmost respect.
This particular review, in my opinion seems to be more of a “beef with SIG” than with the 516 itself. Or maybe it’s just “piston guns” I’m not sure. In either case, I disagree with the authors viewpoint and will purchase one myself because I refuse to buy a DI gun for many reasons, not the least of which is I’ve had to clean far too many DI based M16′s already. I won’t argue reliability with anyone, IMO DOD’s tests prove the point that piston guns are more reliable. If you prefer DI, all I have to say is… enjoy.
I’ve looked at LWRC’s stuff and while I personally would love to have an SPR with that REPR rail, I’m not willing to spend the money they want for one. Also, as I understand, it the company has changed hands too many times in the recent past for my liking. SIG is a major manufacturer that I expect to be around for some time and while this gun may simply be an amalgamation of a lot of others improvements that *is* its selling point to me.
Cheers!
October 16th, 2011 - 23:40
Henry, I don’t like cleaning either. Check out:
this article on 7500 rounds without one proper cleaning
this article on why cleaning an AR-15 is pretty much a waste of time.
October 21st, 2011 - 20:33
Interesting information Andrew, thank you.
Where the hell were you with it when I was cleaning all those rifles with CLP!
October 21st, 2011 - 23:21
I was being forced to disassemble the charging handle of my M4 because a lance corporal in the armory thought it would be funny to waste my time…